Science of the Invisible - Latest Comments in Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

Peter_Miller — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 06:13:56 -0000

I was one of more than 4000 people that attended the Virtual Worlds Best Practices in Education conference this year. And yes, it was virtual, mainly but not exclusively in SL.

I can't remember all the details but the Loyalist College presentation was a highlight for me and really exploited the medium by involving the audience in a highly amusing demonstration of their simulation.

They also had data from the second cohort that were even better than the first. Moreover, they seemed to have largely overcome the commonplace observation that 25% of students don't "get" virtual worlds (as judged by pre- and post-session questionnaires). Of course, that could be down in part to the increased confidence of the instructors as well as tweaking the experience and may not translate to all students and subject areas. Encouraging though.

Of course, their development cost money but it sounds like it was probably a good investment. "Education costs money. Ignorance costs more" as someone once opined.

Anyway, having earned my own post ("Disgusted of Liverpool") for attempting to add value to this conversation, I consider my job done and am reverting to radio silence. Not so much apoplectic or over-sensitive as time-poor.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

AJCann — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:02:24 -0000

Sounds like a throwaway comment n a blog post. No figures given so no way to check. It's not mentioned in the peer-reviewed paper, which is odd.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

teresebird — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:38:35 -0000

Here's where I saw the claim of money saved in the Canadian border simulation:

http://bit.ly/CjvaN

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

AJCann — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 13:53:29 -0000

Thanks for the link Terese. In fact, the paper (non Amanda Linden version here - https://journals.tdl.org/jv... says nothing about money saved. What it does say is "The development process was initiated three months prior to launching the simulation and represents an intense collaborative process between faculty, instructional design, 3-D designers, and builders" - sounds rather expensive, and certainly beyond the reach of an ordinary academic. In addition, there is no indication in the paper that the improvement in student performance (measured in only a single cohort) is statistically significant, so it's difficult to say what the impact of SL was. in this case.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

teresebird — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 12:46:55 -0000

"I'd like to see people who teach as their primary income source rather than work in edtech and who have not had large grants to work with SL defending it - so far, I don't see any."

Here's some: http://bit.ly/xrGbz

Money saved and better pass rate on exams.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

Peter_Miller — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 13:35:26 -0000

Lively was actually "cloned" by a Chinese company as NewLively if you want to use something of that kind. Metaplace is another option.

I'm not interested in wasting my time discussing SL applications with you given your general attitude. You say you are not against "virtuality" per se (whatever that is) but I see little evidence of constructive engagement.

The VW community went with SL because it was the best option at the time and the fact that LL offered hosting was a major plus for pilot-level projects. There is, of course, an SL-like open source option now and many educators are doubtless considering their options in the medium- and long-term. And yes, it can run in a web browser.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

AJCann — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 09:48:01 -0000

Thanks David, useful response. I left you the following comment:

A couple of points. Lively didn't die, Google killed it. Who knows what it could have become with more development.

As I said to people over wine last night, if anyone can give me a practical SL solution to a educational problem I have, I'm more than happy to use it. What I'm not happy to do is pour massive effort into a proprietary platform that almost certainly won't be around in a few years time. Quite why the VW community has jumped on SL rather than pushing an open source pathway is beyond me, and very shortsighted.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

David Burden — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 11:07:04 -0000

Just about to debate with AJCann at FOTE09, so I thought I'd post up a link to my response to this post - you can find it on my blog here: http://www.converj.com/site...

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

Peter_Miller — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 06:25:49 -0000

"I'd like to see people who teach as their primary income source rather than work in edtech and who have not had large grants to work with SL defending it - so far, I don't see any."

Well, that would be me for one. However, the attitude towards SL here has never been conducive to serious debate so, as you know, I sadly gave up on you a long time ago. Some may want to construe that as acting defensively but they should also reflect on how aggressive their stance frequently appears.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

AJCann — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 05:36:37 -0000

> Good Morning AJCann I never have a problem with declaring my interests in the name of transparency, nor will I get all Freudian on you about maybe a bad experience on secondlife, but will expand the debate further, whether you like secondlife, or not, it is part of the expansion of this thing we call web3D or virtual worlds, and the evolution of this "space" will continue whatever our personal feelings.
>
> It is also the space in which the next generation in the convergence of technology,education, communications and a plethora of other uses will converge, and as such even if just to acclimatize ourselves to this space secondlife with all its faults is still the market leader in this space especially as it is not task specific, and gives you opportunity to expand horizons in any direction, be it fantasy or reality.
>
> perhaps you used the word hate as a throw away comment or even to court controversy, it matters not, for it is the open debate that is important, so whether you love it or not you have made a contribution to this debate , and as such I personally thank you.
>
> Julius Sowu Virtually-Linked London

For some reason Julius Disqus isn't showing your comment, So I'll post it (with a response).
I'm not arguing about what SL is, I'm only interested in whether it has any significant educational value at this time. I'm convinced better virtual worlds will come along in time.

I'd like to see people who teach as their primary income source rather than work in edtech and who have not had large grants to work with SL defending it - so far, I don't see any.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

kwameoh — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 05:24:36 -0000

Good Morning AJCann I never have a problem with declaring my interests in the name of transparency, nor will I get all Freudian on you about maybe a bad experience on secondlife, but will expand the debate further, whether you like secondlife, or not, it is part of the expansion of this thing we call web3D or virtual worlds, and the evolution of this "space" will continue whatever our personal feelings.

It is also the space in which the next generation in the convergence of technology,education, communications and a plethora of other uses will converge, and as such even if just to acclimatize ourselves to this space secondlife with all its faults is still the market leader in this space especially as it is not task specific, and gives you opportunity to expand horizons in any direction, be it fantasy or reality.

perhaps you used the word hate as a throw away comment or even to court controversy, it matters not, for it is the open debate that is important, so whether you love it or not you have made a contribution to this debate , and as such I personally thank you.

Julius Sowu Virtually-Linked London

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

jayjay — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 04:30:46 -0000

I have no problem with Second Life.

I have a problem reading about how much money is spent (wasted) on something that can only be introduced to PHD STUDENTS through the medium of physical supervision (i.e. someone needs to watch them on the computers while they use it incase they violate ITS rules and regulations)

I think you should do a study of second life researchers in education. Stats on how many of them use it beyond the work place, how many teach (successfully) using it - and some interviews measuring the discourse of defense when talking about their magical wurld.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

davidandrew — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 04:02:48 -0000

I recall an on-line JISC conference a couple of years ago with a SL session - I recall the facilitator saying that they would be continuing with the participants who had found the workshop room - well if ed-techs can't find their way round!

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

mweller — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:56:47 -0000

I'm with Alan on the SLisPants front - but I accept this is almost entirely an emotional response. I _could_ pretend to wrap it up in a feature analysis or pedagogical one, but ultimately SL is just not my thing. I don't feel it and it kind of reeks of role playing games to me. But I fully accept that just as I have this anti, or lack, of emotional response to it, others have the opposite. Which leads me to a very wishy-washy conclusion - we have to get used to the fact that there is no single environment/technology.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

AJCann — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:48:57 -0000

It's certainly intended to be humorous Andy - there is too little humour in education. I was asked to help stimulate a debate about SL, which I am happy to do. I am also happy to stand by everything I said in my post, and the way that I said it.
I agree that virtual worlds (in some form) have pedagogic possibilities, but not SL - the barriers/defects are just too great. And I don't think Google's commercial interests overlap much with pedagogy - they've dropped a number of 20% time projects which seemed to have potential but which, presumably, didn't fit into the Google roadmap. As you know, Google acquires but Google never divests.
Thanks for joining the debate, hope you caught your train.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

AJCann — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:43:52 -0000

Thanks for declaring your vested interest in Second Life Julius. I'm writing as someone who has no particular investment in SL beyond it's potential. I certainly don't make any money out of it.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

AJCann — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:41:30 -0000

Thanks Sarah, Sadly, collaboration in education almost alays falls foul of the "not invented here syndrome". You don't get any grants or promotion (or maybe even hang onto your job) if you collaborate with competitor institutions.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

AJCann — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:39:51 -0000

I'm hoiping this debate will stimulate people moving away from SL to these "better virtual worlds" we are both dreaming of.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

AJCann — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:38:44 -0000

It would be helpful if you could point at some of the alternatives you mention. As I said, I'm not against virtuality per se, it's mostly SL I have a problem with.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

AJCann — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:36:53 -0000

I don't agree entirely - I think SL is so poorly designed and restrictive that it encourages lack of imagination (whereas Wordpress encourages freedom of expression). I'm sure virtual worlds can be done better than SL.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

AJCann — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:35:25 -0000

Which misses the point - why doesn't SL work like this?

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

kerryank — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 22:04:51 -0000

Blaming Second Life for poorly designed educational sims is as productive as blaming WordPress for the multitude of self-aggrandising blog posts that are produced.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

Disappointed at 'debate' — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:31:39 -0000

I have to agree with andypowe11, though I don't think you intend to be humorous - if you do, it doesn't work and becomes boring very quickly. I thought this was going to be an academic debate at FOTE but the near-hysterical, and absurdly over the top, viewpoints significantly weaken your argument, not strengthen it. You are just coming over as a bitter and angry Rush Limbaugh caricature (anger to cover lack of substance), rather than an academic who wishes to engage in academic debate.

A pity, as some of your points - were you to word them in a mature, adult, manner - are quite pertinent and worthy of further consideration. Though your comment about Google Lively being better than SL is beyond bizarre. At that point I started to wonder if you are just baiting everyone for some reason?

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

xig — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:21:25 -0000

I *will* go as far as to say I loved SL. I used it as a commercial, educational and social tool for 3 years. I wanted to clear up a few misconceptions in the post and comments;

"poor user interface" - there are open source alternatives available to download and use on all platforms; 3D, 2D and text only.

"every time I try to use it I have to start by downloading an installing a new version of the client software" - please don't complain that LL release bugfixes and security updates every so often. "By that time..the event I'm supposed to be attending is over." - like any event, try turning up a few minutes early :)

"almost every project feels it has to build a representation of the real world" - that isn't a fault of Second Life, LL or the protocol. The 3D space is created entirely by users, and that is the lack of imagination of the users you're spending time with. Find new friends or build something original. SL is packed with private islands and all sorts that blow the lid off real world recreations. Set up your own land and let students create and build.

"If I want to train students in genetics, do I need to build a laboratory with trees outside the window? Get real!" .. No, stop asking and start building. Get unreal! There's plenty of unreal in SL. It takes patience and time to find the locations and people of value in SL.

"Sub-contracting pedagogy by employing firms of developers to build "stuff" for you because you can't use the tools you are expecting students to use is about to become socially unacceptable." - stop sub-contracting. Buy/rent virtual land (its not expensive) and let your students go wild. There's nothing more exciting than 2 acres of grass and the build tool.

"I want to spend my time teaching/learning, not fiddling about with a cartoon representations of myself, or worse, paying someone else to do it for me." - then create a welcoming environment for your students to pick up avatars/clothing for free. There are millions of freebies on SL. Making a virtual representation of yourself is part of the experience and shouldn't take long. If you're obsessed with hopping between locations looking for the right hairstyle, that's your problem.

"Data portability - in Second Life? Don't make me laugh." - there are third-party tools to backup your SL character and inventory. The environment you explore is easily readable by open source clients for cloning (a big blow against commercial outlets) and data is easily thrown into and out of the SL world over HTTP.

"Sleaze" - at every corner, I agree. LL offer private land and walled gardens which are ideal for learning environments. Or even better try OpenGrid.

"Second life is too difficult to use." - not really. It takes maybe an hour to get to grips with, but months to find locations and people of value. If you're an educator then you should be providing that to your students making it quick and easy. I'd love to help, but don't sub-contract :)

"Horrible interface, clunky, awkward" - there are many clients available, not just Linden Lab's.

"I hate a lot of stuff that damages education!" - better block Wikipedia then, maybe unplug computers. Shit, go back to blackboards.

"90% of the physical land mass is too far from exchanges and can't receive enough bandwidth to try them out [in the UK]" - where the hell did you get that statistic. I believe a good proportion of the UK has ample bandwidth to support Second Life, unfortunately SL is hosted in the US and thus very slow. If you repeatedly visit the same SL locations, chunky downloads are cached on your PC and thus faster the next time you visit. Alas SL is slow. Saying only 10% of the UK can use SL is laughable (and I did).

"You seem to be as guilty as the extreme pro-Second Lifers were about 2 years ago of assuming that your personal preferences must be the right answer for everyone else." - I suspect I'm falling foul of this :) To put my opinion simply - SL is a great tool when used appropriately. If things don't suit you, adjust the open source tools to meet your requirements. Use it, write it or find something else. There's no point ranting how crap it is.

If you still decide Second Life is a waste of time, I hope you agree that it is a step in the right direction. And if you're trolling heck I fell for it.

Re: Virtually Useless #fote09 #fote09vw

SarahStewart — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:59:34 -0000

I get what you're saying - I have struggled with a lot of what you've said throughout the Second Life project I have been involved with: http://slenz.wordpress.com
However, once the issues around access had been ironed out, our midwifery students found their learning experience in SL to be really valuable.

I very strongly believe that one way to approach the expense issue is to be a lot more collaborative about development. In other words, in midwifery I would like an international approach so we're not all re-inventing the wheel - that we share resources and develop a strategy for utilizing what we have all developed in SL.